From addressing the cost of living crisis to fueling our world with climate- and people-first technologies, renewable energy presents innovative solutions for meeting our energy needs while minimizing environmental impact. In partnership with Octopus Energy, we explore the future of our planet, focusing on equity and sustainability by harnessing nature's power through renewable energy. Join us for an in-depth exploration of the renewable energy landscape, where you'll hear from industry experts leading this transformative movement.
From addressing the cost of living crisis to fueling our world with climate- and people-first technologies, renewable energy presents innovative solutions for meeting our energy needs while minimizing environmental impact. In partnership with Octopus Energy, we explore the future of our planet, focusing on equity and sustainability by harnessing nature's power through renewable energy. Join us for an in-depth exploration of the renewable energy landscape, where you'll hear from industry experts leading this transformative movement.
Welcome back to A World Upside Down podcast. Today, we have two guests with us.
Yes, we do, and I'm so excited to introduce Michael and Ashley from Octopus Energy.
Great to be here, thank you so much.
Yeah, thanks, really great to be here.
Later in this episode, we'll delve deeper into how their innovative contribute to sustainable community development, and why partnering up on this podcast episode is so important to bring about awareness and action for a greener future. We'll also explore the successes and challenges of these projects, providing a platform for discussing how innovative energy solutions can be effectively implemented across communities. But firstly, I think it's important to talk about what climate change actually is.
Climate change is one of the most pressing issues of our time, affecting every corner of our planet. At its core, climate change refers to long-term shifts in weather patterns and temperatures on earth, largely driven by human activities such as burning fossil fuels, deforestation and the industrial processes like chemical manufacturing, steel and cement production and dying textiles. These activities release greenhouse gases, including carbon dioxide and other harmful co-pollutants into the atmosphere, trapping heat and leading to gradual but significant chemical changes and warming of the planet.
You know, over the years of being an activist, I've heard many misconceptions about what climate change actually is. With some people even suggesting that global warming simply means better opportunities for turning. Let's set the record straight once and for all.
This is not true. Any intention to misinform people about climate change impacts is actually quite dangerous. Misrepresenting the consequences of climate change can result in supporting practices and people that are detrimental to our environment, and in turn, harm the people who are most vulnerable to its impacts.
Those who suffer first and worst from climate change are often least equipped to manage these challenges, highlighting the critical need for accurate understanding and responsible action. The truth is, this human-made warming brings about a plague of environmental, social and economic impacts, including sea level rise, extreme weather events, disruption to ecosystems, the threat to floods and water security. Understanding what climate change is is essential for addressing its challenges and developing effective strategies to mitigate its effects and build a more sustainable future.
Should humanity continue to pollute the planet, we stand to confront severe consequences spanning many generations. Consequences of humanity not taking action urgently enough cannot be overstated. From worsening air pollution, habitat destruction, animal extinction, hurricanes, coastal flooding, ocean acidification, wildfires and desertification, including the compounding impacts of worsening public health and economic stability, from worsening climate change and social inequity causing climate change to impact communities more severely who have already been marginalised.
It's I think unthinkable to process all the information of what our future could look like without solving the climate crisis or without taking action by acknowledging the urgent imperative to combat climate change. It becomes increasingly evident that transitioning from fossil fuels to renewable energy sources is not just an option, but a necessity.
The carbonisation is a critical process that involves eliminating fossil fuels from our energy systems and fundamentally rethinking the way we power our lives and the world around us. When we talk about renewable energy, we're referring to sustainable sources like solar power and wind power. These alternatives are vital for creating a more sustainable and environmentally friendly future.
Both these technologies help in mitigating the adverse impacts of climate change by reducing our dependency on fossil fuels.
Also, because they are renewable and not finite like fossil fuels, they are the sustained and long-term solution to climate change and the way we power our globe.
Retrofitting homes is another essential part of decarbonisation and in mitigating climate change impacts. Improving energy efficiency involves steps like enhancing insulation and incorporating renewable energy sources, such as solar panels, into our energy systems. For us, smart home technologies and water saving fixtures further optimise energy and resource use, leading to reduced utility costs and increased property value.
Technologies like these and initiatives in retrofitting homes are really essential. And like I always say, you can't just slap a solar panel on the climate crisis. There must be essential considerations for equity and restoration that implement the ideals of climate justice, by intertwining climate solutions with social responsibility for the shared benefit for marginalised groups.
Climate justice embodies the principles that the impacts of climate change are not distributed equally. With vulnerable and marginalised communities often bearing the brunt of its effects. The concept emphasises fairness, equity and solidarity in addressing both the root cause and the consequences of climate change.
Climate justice also upholds the rights of impacted communities, including the rights of life, health, food, water and self-determination, and seeks to address the climate-related injustices through legal and policy frameworks.
To summarise at the foundation of climate justice and decarbonisation is the need to transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy. As we say at protests, divestment from fossil fuels now. This transformation of our energy sector must not only focus on green technology, but must also emphasise strengthening the ties between the sustainable energy supply and community development.
Such approaches ensure that the benefits of renewable energy are not just theoretical, but tangible and widely distributed amongst all stakeholders. In this vital moment towards a future operating off green energy, Octopus Energy is at the forefront, championing a community centric approach to the energy transition. And I'm so happy to say that they've partnered on today's episode.
Yes, one of their main initiatives is Octopus Energy's fan club, launched in 2021, making renewable energy more accessible by connecting consumers directly to local energy projects, thus lowering costs and fostering a sense of community ownership. The second initiative, Octopus Energy's Zero Bills Homes, promises no energy bills for the first five years for homes outfitted with energy efficient technologies. This initiative directly addresses the fact that domestic heating is currently responsible for 14% of the UK's total carbon emissions.
Welcome Ashley and Michael. We're thrilled to have you on the podcast with us. Ashley Gray is the Managing Director of Octopus Energy Generation, and will be speaking with us about Octopus Energy's Fan Club program.
Michael Cottrell is the Google Partnerships Director at Octopus Energy Group, and will be speaking with us about Octopus Energy's Zero Builds Homes initiative. So I want to jump right into my first question. What would you describe as the mission driving Octopus Energy?
Yeah, it's a big question. Here at Octopus Energy Group, we're on a mission to deliver or to make cheaper and greener energy available to people around the world and to get there as fast as possible. Underpinning everything that we do is a belief that technology will be key to deliver the energy system of the future and allowing it to be dominated by renewables.
We're very excited about the progress that we've made to date, but also appreciate there's a long way to go if we're to fully execute on that vision.
So from my perspective, I see Octopus Energy as driving the green transition so that it's faster and cheaper ultimately using technology, but fundamentally with the customer in mind. So in taking an entirely new look at the energy system and what it should look like into the future, but really placing customers at the core of that.
With renewable energy adoption and demand growing higher than ever, while the cost of fossil fuel energy constantly increasing, causing a cost of living crisis, how is Octopus Energy adapting this disparency and helping to accelerate the renewable energy transition?
Right, against the backdrop of a cost of living crisis, as you say, which is actually driven by an energy crisis, which is driving up energy prices, which is fueling inflation and fueling that cost of living squeeze on people. To have the answer be a sort of very energy efficient home is incredibly powerful, not just for us, but obviously for people. And that's why, as we say, the feedback is consistent about how sort of transformational it can be for people's lives.
And I think one of the things I'm most proud about is it is not targeted at a specific niche where we're deliver zero bill homes in a whole different range of settings and contexts and price points. And we have people who live in social housing who are now living in zero bill homes, and as well as all other Kenya types and also types of property as well.
One of the things that I think is particularly impactful in this space is that once perhaps the solution to multiple problems is actually the same. So in terms of your initial question where you said, demand for energy is increasing and is only going to increase into the future, but also the cost of energy is increasing, usefully in the context of renewable energy, actually the answer to that is the same thing. On the one hand, renewable energy is the cheapest cost of energy out there.
And secondly, if you think of, I suppose, what renewable energy fundamentally is at its core, it's energy from natural sources that's replenished at a higher rate than it's consumed. And so in looking to the future, it's very difficult to see really what other alternative there is, and it just so happens that that's the cleanest option out there, which is fantastic news, certainly for the world as a whole, but for us as a business, it's a very positive thing. So I work more on the generation side of the business, so it's something that I'm very passionate about, and the fan club initiative sits within those teams as well.
We launched fan club a number of years ago to highlight the benefits of wind energy specifically to communities. So this, to a certain extent, is specific to the UK, but I'm sure it's a problem in other countries as well. But what wind is, we know, one of the cheapest forms of energy, and it's one of the fastest to build.
So in the context of an energy crisis, like Michael was referring to earlier, and the cost of living crisis that arose from that, what should be a rapid solution to that, the construction of more wind, allowing for more cheaper energy to come on online, was really difficult to achieve in the UK. Because of regulatory barriers. And because of a perception that there was, that wind energy itself was unpopular in communities.
We weren't convinced that was the case, and also felt we needed to test that, amongst a few other theories around wind. And so we launched Fan Club, which offers discounts on energy bills to people who live nearby certain wind turbines. And actually the response to that has been truly incredible.
It's shown that people are fundamentally welcoming to wind energy in particular, if they see a benefit on their energy bills at the end of the month. And you can see how that's fair, and why communities might be resistant to hosting projects if at the end of the day, their energy bill remains the same in terms of how the system works. And so we've really had a fantastic response to that, and I've seen how the British public in particular are now backing wind quite wholeheartedly because of the benefits of that.
And of course, it's greener, and they're changing their consumption behaviors as a result. I think we'll come on to that later. But certainly in a UK context, it's amazing to see the transformation in attitudes to renewable energy and wind in particular, driven by what is possible to achieve in terms of benefits to the end consumer.
I'm eager to explore further how Octopus Energy and the Zero Bills Home Innovative are championing home electrification and decarbonisation. What strategies have proven most effective in your efforts?
Yeah, well, I think as you describe, electrification of everything and more and more parts of our lives, be that transport or heat or just general consumption as we interact more with technology, means that the energy system has to adapt. A big part of the answer for us, we believe, is that flexibility will be key and helping consumers to understand that not all electrons are equal, but actually that there are easy things that you can do as consumers and we can offer as a company to kind of help move when we use electricity to meet the times when electricity is cheap and on the grid normally when the wind is blowing and the sun is shining. And I think I've had the pleasure of working on our Zero Bill Homes proposition for a couple of years now.
And that really is kind of the culmination of a lot of work that we've done in that space where we're able to help the consumers living in these homes to live bill free by helping them to manage their energy consumption and matching it to renewable power on grid. And we do that through working with a battery in the home and also with an air source heat pump. So these are fully electric homes using more electricity than say a traditional home would have, especially here in the UK.
And yet we're able to deliver it bill free because we're able to help match their consumption so closely to when energy is cheap and abundant on the grid via renewables.
When it comes to the zero bills homes, what practical impacts have you witnessed and what feedback have you received to date?
Yeah, well, we're starting to now have, you know, a significant number of people who are now living in homes with no energy bill. And actually the messages that we get from them are very consistent in that, you know, they live in very comfortable homes. And here in the UK, they're generally referring to warm homes during the winter months.
And they're able to do that without having to worry about the bill that they're racking up, which is, they find very liberating and very empowering. And then the other message that we get from them is always that there's this amazing kind of, you know, I was going to say warm feeling, but I guess it is a warm feeling as well, not just from the comfort, but also because they know that actually the way that they're able to achieve that comfort and that bill-free feeling is actually because they live in an incredibly sustainable home that's actually helping to support a really sustainable energy system. Because of that feedback that we're getting, we're now starting to scale the proposition and we will deliver 1,000 zero bill homes this year.
Thank you for that. I think for me and many people who are starting to understand the impacts of climate change and the global scale, transparency around emissions and decarbonization is really crucial. It'd be interesting to learn more about your perspective on this matter and the strategies that you guys employ within transparency and accountability within the initiatives you talked about.
On this point in particular, one of the things that initially drew me to Octopus Energy before I worked here, but when I knew it as a company in the sector, was its incredible transparency and directness when it comes to its communication. So I think suppliers always used to assume that people perhaps weren't interested in energy or if they were interested, it's not worth taking the time to simplify concepts and explain it in a way that's accessible for everybody and actually makes sense in the context of their day-to-day life. But I think what Octopus realized very early on is that is absolutely not true and that people are interested in energy, particularly in the context of what then, you know, was a bit more of a focus on the climate crisis, but subsequently became a focus on the cost of energy arising as a result of the cost of the energy crisis.
And every communication that Octopus sends out to its customers is really thoughtfully prepared with a focus on making sure that it's as transparent and sort of clearly communicated as possible. I can't take credit for that at all, but it's something that I've always admired. It's another team's effort, but it's always, it's incredible to see actually how consistent that approach is across every team.
So I suppose linking it back to the fan club again, specifically, we have recently launched push notifications to our fan club customers as an example of transparency, I suppose. So we now will actively push notifications to the customers, notifying them when it is cheapest for them to consume energy. That type of transparency about when is the best time for the customer to consume is, I think, quite unique in the sector, and it's something that's very important to us because at the end of the day, I don't think the energy transition will succeed unless we have real critical mass in terms of support or the shift to global renewables.
And there are many other examples of that type of transparency. I'll let Michael speak to those.
Yeah, just maybe to build on some of the points that Ashley made, I think on the communication, it's a really great one. And I believe the kind of sector is often quite complex and we have a responsibility to cut through some of that complexity for customers. So in certain markets, there's legal or regulatory frameworks into which you have to do things like present a bill, for example.
But so we'll do that, we'll comply, but we'll also kind of put the headlines in a really easy to read email, for example, right? And I think as we've progressed into I guess more innovative products and services, things like tariffs that are geared to people who have electric vehicles or that have a domestic battery or even something as all encompassing as zero bill homes, we're very careful to not black box it for the customer and to always show them what's happening. So for example, with an EV driver, we'll show them the charging schedule that we've set for their vehicle to charge up, for example, overnight when energy is cheaper and greener on the grid.
And therefore, and show them what kind of benefit that they access because of that in a zero bill context. We'll always show them what the home generated and what their home consumed, even though the bill is zero and they don't really need to know that if you see what I mean to get it. Benefit will always surface that for consumer.
And I think the other thing I would say is that we think it's very important at the moment that the benefit of doing all of these innovation that it passed to the consumer, and Ashley, you touched on this. Like, you know, if the consumer's gonna be brought along on the journey, and we believe that's very important that they'll actually be the agents of change or of transition, then they need to understand what's going on. They need to understand it in a way that's easy for them to get at.
And they don't think that, I think it's really detrimental if suspicion of greenwashing or of smoke and mirrors or anything like that. So we're very careful to make sure that we are transparent, that we give our customers the full view of what's going on. And I think we see the benefits of that as well, right?
Because you build trust. Energy companies, at least here in the UK, which I know the best, they're kind of up there with some of them, traditionally with some of the most distrusted organizations in the past, not been easy to understand bills or changes or what's been happening. And therefore building trust in that context is actually really powerful.
And we've seen that borne out, we're not always the cheapest, for example, on some of our standard products, but we continue to grow because people know that they're going to get honesty and transparency from us.
I can't agree more. I think transparency is key, especially from company to consumer. That's what everyone's looking for.
I want to thank you both, Michael and Ashley, for taking the time to join this podcast today. I think it's been an amazing conversation. I think we've made great impact together.
Yeah, thank you. Real pleasure.
Thank you.
In understanding how initiatives like the ones that Octopus Energy, we can see that providing community inclusion mechanisms, timely guidance for sustainability practices, and more, can begin to understand the mechanisms of governments and financial institutions that can build a more sustainable world. In understanding how initiatives like the ones that Octopus Energy, we can see that providing community inclusion mechanisms, timely guidance of sustainability practices, and more, we can begin to understand the mechanisms of governments and financial institutions that can build a more sustainable world. One way in which we do this is through ensuring a certain percentage of funding allocated for the implementation of climate action is to marginalized groups.
This is called Justice 40 Initiative, which aims to ensure that 40% of the overall benefits of federal government incentives flows to disadvantaged communities. This initiative is particularly significant as it includes expanding stakeholder engagement plans, reviewing energy implementation strategies, all in efforts to maximize benefits for disadvantaged communities, and creating methodologies to accurately measure and distribute these benefits. An example of this is the US.
Department of Energy's commitment to fund the equivalent of 5 million households to create $1 billion in energy savings by 2025, prioritizing marginalized communities to share the benefits of economic investment.
In California, there's also an innovative called the California's Low Income Weatherization Program, designed to prioritize these households, providing them with the necessary energy-efficient upgrades that reduce energy consumption and lower monthly bills. To prioritize these households, providing them with the necessary energy-efficient upgrades that reduce energy consumption and lower monthly bills. This not only makes clean energy more accessible, but also helps in alleviating the economic stress on these communities by reducing their overall energy expenses.
Government initiatives like these are essential in ensuring that the transition to renewable energy does not exacerbate social inequities, but contributes to solving it. Programs that center green investments in communities not only tackle the practical aspects of renewable energy, but also boost mental health by connecting people to a larger, meaningful cause. Engaging communities in renewable energy projects can have positive psychological effects, including a sense of agency and help for the future.
By displacing fossil fuels, renewable energy also reduces pollutants that lead to poor air quality and serious health hazards in many urban areas. Pollutants such as sulfur dioxide, nitrous oxide and particulate matter from burning fossil fuels can cause respiratory diseases and other health problems. Renewable energy sources contribute to cleaner air, which directly benefits public health and reduces health care costs associated with pollution-related illnesses.
Energy resilience is also so important, yet rarely discussed. Resilience refers to the ability of systems, communities and ecosystems to anticipate, prepare for, respond to, and recover from adverse effects of climate-related events. This concept, while encompassing a wide range of activities and adaptations to help mitigate impacts of climate change, it highlights the importance of long-term sustainability use of renewable energy.
Building resilience locally requires establishing community-driven initiatives, which are vital pathways to facilitate social responsibility and are collaborative efforts where local residents are at the forefront of conceptualising, developing and executing solutions that have a direct impact on their lives. These community-driven initiatives in renewable energy not only address pressing environmental challenges, but also promote social equity and economic self-determination. By empowering local communities to lead and benefit from such projects, these initiatives forge a deep connection between renewable advancements and the communities they serve.
This approach represents a holistic model of sustainable development intertwined with environmental solutions with a broader agenda of social justice.
The economic benefits of community renewable energy projects are substantial and multifaceted. An important fact I read according to the Solar Energy Industries Association is that every megawatt of installed solar capacity generates approximately six to eight jobs. This job creation extends from construction to ongoing maintenance and management of energy facilities, reinforcing local economies and promoting self-reliance.
For instance, the adoption of solar energy in the United States alone is projected to create 1.5 million jobs by 2030. These opportunities are not confined to direct energy production, but also include roles in supporting sectors such as technology, manufacturing and services.
As a young person, prioritizing education is so important for our future. With capacity building and education priority through these programs, raises awareness about the benefits of renewable energy and sustainable practices. Cultivates a generation that can actively participate in and advocate for environmentally friendly practices and sustainable lifestyles.
Looking into the future, international trends in renewable energy adoption are promising. In 2020 alone, there was an 18% increase in solar voltaic installations worldwide, cultivating a total capacity of 138.2 gigawatts. By 2050, renewable sources like solar are expected to produce 75% of the world's electricity, dramatically reducing greenhouse gas emissions and further supporting sustainability transition through new jobs and innovations.
The integration of inclusive policies and innovation financing and community driven models like community solar systems highlight the transformational potential of renewable energy. These models ensure that clean energy solutions are not only affordable, but accessible to all, particularly benefiting marginalized and low income communities. Such inclusivity is vital as it addresses energy poverty and fosters economic independence, proving that affordable access to clean energy transcends mere necessity.
It's a moral imperative aligned with the goals of social justice and sustainability.
And by prioritizing inclusivity and community engagement, the clean energy revolution promises to bring about significant social, economic and environmental benefits. This movement is not just about adopting new technologies, it's about reshaping society towards a more equitable and sustainable future.
As we all collectively strive to meet the needed targets set by international treaties such as the Paris Agreement, the role of community becomes even more crucial. Sticking to these commitments require more than just a top-down approach. It necessitates having communities at the heart of all decarbonisation strategies.
That's why innovatives like those led by Octopus Energy are pivotal. They do more than just reduce carbon footprints. They also enhance the social and economic well-being of the communities involved.
That's the future I want to live in. By aligning clean energy projects with the diverse needs and aspirations of local populations, we ensure a holistic approach to sustainability that encompasses not just environmental dimensions, but also the socio-economic factors critical to achieving widespread acceptance and success. This community-focused strategy not only adheres to global environmental goals, but also fosters a sense of ownership and pride amongst local stakeholders, thereby catalyzing sustained environmental advocacy and action at the grassroots level.
In the pursuit of stopping the climate crisis and creating a sustainable future, we must use new strategies to make real and long-lasting change happen.
Thank you so so much, Ashley and Michael, for coming on to this episode and sharing your insights. I think it would be really impactful to end this episode by asking you one last question. What does the future look like for Octopus Energy and the world if we all continue to scale the work we do for a greener future?
We've made huge strides in investment into the energy transition, but we need to do so much more. So I believe the figures are that we need to triple investment into energy by 2030. So we really need bold transformational efforts from both us and other people in the industry so that we can actually increase the amount of investment that's going into generation, both in terms of actual amount and in terms of the type of people who are investing.
So widening that pool of people to include anyone and everyone, including you and me, investing in renewable energy assets. Also to accelerate deployment, it's one of the key challenges, is how do we actually get these projects in the ground? And also, how do we widen the pools of countries that are doing, that are moving along this journey of the energy transition?
And that's something that I'm particularly passionate about, and one of the projects that I'm working on in the Generation Team, is thinking about that geographic expansion. So recently we announced, for example, a project in Sierra Leone. So that's West Africa.
So we know that wind energy in particular is largely untapped across Africa. And over, I think it's something like over 40% of the population of Africa lacks access to electricity. So again, you have one of the cheapest forms of energy that should be fastest to build in a context where there are numerous people who don't have access to electricity at all.
So we're working on a project in Sierra Leone to bring the first wind farm to the country to see whether actually wind has potential in that part of the world. Now, that's one pocket of Africa, and there's a huge amount more to be done, and we hope to play our part both there and elsewhere across the world. A really positive story, and that's something that we've seen in the UK, onshore wind that used to be effectively banned for reasons that I won't go into.
It's shifted, and that's due to the continued advocacy and pressure from a number of industry players, including us, and also the general British population, who, as I mentioned earlier, are very keen on onshore wind. I suppose, more on a slightly more personal note, one of my favourite optimistic stories that I tell is, so I grew up in southern hemisphere, specifically in southern Africa, and a very real aspect of our day to day was the ozone layer and the terrible sunburns that we would all suffer if we were out in the sun for too long. So, that's an example of a really significant climate related problem that was quite a severe problem in sort of 70s, 80s, but in, I think it was 1987, they signed the Montreal Protocol, which was the first global agreement to reduce the use of those substances.
And between then and now, those substances have reduced and the emissions from those substances have reduced by 99% and it's considered the most successful global environmental treaty in history. And the ozone layers on track to be healed, I suppose, in a matter of decades. It's the type of thing that one would have thought is impossible, but a real example of the incredible impact that one can have if everybody just gets on board and does what they need to in order to solve the significant problems that we're facing across the globe.
So I still get horribly sunburned when I go home. But nevertheless, it's a point that always sort of lifts my spirits when I'm in the trenches of the difficulties that we face going forward.
Yes, absolutely. I think it's so amazing to see the kind of solidarity that came together to close the ozone layer, and the fact that that needs to happen now for climate action. And I think I want to point that same question to you, Michael.
What does the future look like for Octopus Energy in the world if we continue to scale and continue the work you all are doing?
Yeah, I mean, I'm very excited. I guess optimistic by nature, and I'm very excited by the mission that we have here at Octopus. I think there's so much more to do.
We've got to keep demonstrating the power and the value of transitioning to a green energy system or a renewable based energy system. And if we keep doing that, then we take away the arguments for inaction. We appeal not just to the, you know, this is the right thing to do within people, but we actually, you know, appeal to a different sense of urgency of, oh, wow, this is actually the better thing to do and the more valuable thing to do for everybody as well.
And that's why I think there's been, that's why I think some of the projects that we've been working over, you know, of late are so exciting and, you know, and zero bills being, you know, front and center of my mind as I speak about that, that as I mentioned earlier, that you can deploy all this low-carbon tech and actually eradicate energy bills as you decarbonize at the same time, I think is really exciting. And it'll be through showcases like that that we continue to extend our reach. And of course, we've got Octopus Energy as a kind of brand and a consumer brand and a retail brand, but the technology that we have built the business on, which we call Kraken, is starting to be used by other energy companies and actually other companies in other sectors, such as water and broadband and others too.
And I think that's exciting because we don't have to do it all ourselves, right? We can provide the fundamentals that allow, that enable things like Zero Bills Homes, things like the fan club to exist, but actually we can, as a sector, forward. And of course others will have other ideas and other spins and other takes on it, but hopefully the direction of travel will be consistent.